My friend Krislanatin put up a post today about heretics. It’s a good post, you should go read it.
Since I am a heretic, I thought I might take a minute to explain why I don’t go to church.
I believe one can make a strong case for defining the current institutional church as following the Papal system–even the Protestant/non-demoninational institutional churches.
Here’s why I believe that to be true and why you should stop going to church.
Since 1994 or so when I read “A Woman Rides the Beast” by Dave Hunt I began to see the Catholic Church as the Whore of Babylon mentioned in Revelation. Hunt does a great job of demonstrating why he sees that, though I disagree with the section on the Nazi’s and the Catholics simply because any denomination likely has some baggage over similar issues.
So, 13 years ago that was pretty easy for me to assimilate. I was in an independent fundamentalist church with no ties to the Catholics—or at least in my mind that was the case.
But since then I have gone a little deeper—or more heretical in some people’s minds. I have begun to believe that to some degree or another the entire institutional church is still the Catholic Church and is still being run by Papal decree.
I came from a home where we went to church every Sunday. It was a United Methodist church but was still pretty conservative. As a teenager I began attending a more conservative independent congregation. When it came time to go to college I went to a fundy Bible college.
One thing you need to understand about fundy Bible colleges: No matter how much denial of reality one has to perform, every fundy act is justified as Biblical. Interpretations are based on tradition far more than Biblical imperatives.
If you read that last paragraph to a literalist he will insist it’s not the case, and I’m confident he believes it’s not the case, but I’m about to demonstrate to any neutral observer how true it is.
One of my favorite examples of tradition over Bible is communion.
Ask any fundy scholar what feast was being celebrated by Jesus and his disciples at “the Last Supper” and they will tell you the feast of unleavened bread also known as Passover.
Passover was a meal. Participation by the Jews was required under penalty of excommunication from the Jewish nation. Passover was meant to commemorate the end of slavery and rebirth into a new life of freedom.
Paul tells us Passover points us to Christ. (Remember, Christianity is simply a Jewish sect that was expanded to the Gentiles as well.)
Now, Jesus says “as often as you do this, do this in remembrance of me.” Do what? Celebrate Passover. Pretty simple.
Yet most Christians don’t ever celebrate Passover. In fact, they celebrate something looking much more like the idol feast of Mithras.
[For a good overview of Mithraism, this is a good article: http://www.taivaansusi.net/historia/mithraism.html though it lacks proper citations. The Wiki article lacks some details, but has good citations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras ]
We know the early church adopted many pagan traditions in order to gain acceptance among the pagans.
Here’s the funny thing when you start talking to a fundy about Passover, Communion and the Feast of Mithras—they will claim Passover shouldn’t be practiced by Christians (without any Biblical support) then spend lots of time trying to deny how much communion looks like the Feast of Mithras.
Easter is another place where the message of Passover has been supplanted by a pagan tradition—the one of Tammuz and his mother/lover, alternately called “The Queen of Heaven” and “Ishtar.” Some believe “Ishtar” and the Anglo-Saxon goddess “Eostre,” from which the celebration known as “Easter” originated, are the same goddess. Some cite a lack of evidence between the two as meaning one had nothing to do with the other.
But no matter if Ishtar and Eostre are the same deity; it is obvious neither are Jesus.
So while Passover is mentioned in the scripture, today’s institutional church chooses instead to celebrate Easter, named after a pagan goddess.
But where did these types of perversions of the faith originate? It’s somewhat hard to tell—it’s possible early in the church (2nd century CE) some Christian leaders in an effort to try to assimilate the masses adopted pagan practices. It is certain by the time of Constantine and the birth of the Roman Catholic Church this became standard practice.
So when I say the institutional church is still just the expanded Roman church, that’s why. The traditions and practices—even of most fundy churches—are based on the traditions and practices of the Roman church rather than on the Bible. We have been so steeped in Romanism most Christians have never considered why they do the things they do.
Why build buildings? Why hire “preachers”? Why spend 90% + of the resources of Christians simply maintaining the system?
Why worship on Sunday—the day of the Sun god Mithras? Why celebrate Mithras birthday (December 25) when it is clear the Christ would be revealed at Rosh Hashanah, the feast of Trumpets? Why take a little wafer and a thimble of wine when the Bible pictures a full meal with some people even getting drunk?
Why call a celebration of Christ “The Feast of Easter”? Why spend 40 days before the feast “Weeping for Tammuz” and calling it Lent?
As I got the answers to these questions I saw a stronger and stronger connection between any institutional church and the Catholic church.
Since leaving the church building and institutions and following Christ without the trappings, I have more faith and more joy. I am closer to God than I ever have been in my life. Depsite many offers, I will not be going back.
March 29, 2007 at 4:01 pm
The reason God is closer is for two reasons, because he is calling and the other is because Satan has the ability to make you feel that your closer. Remember Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter and he said the fires of hell shall not prevail against it. The church has many problems but it is still there. And will be there for a long time to come. I hope and pray that you will become open to truth. Not every thing is what it seems and not every thing seems what it is. We must have faith with out question, it’s this faith that leads us to God. He wants us like children wanting and needing, not having all the answers for when we meet him. The last supper was the great gife Jesus gave us, and it is the new way that he is with us. It is only through the Eucharist that we can recieve him in Body and Spirit. Don’t live your life with out Eucharist, it only way to be with him right now, before our death. Take care and God Bless.
March 29, 2007 at 4:40 pm
You are too steeped in pagan tradition to understand that there is no Eucharist–at least not in the way you see it. Jesus is the Passover lamb and by failing to participate in Passover and substituting your own feast of Mithras you are cut off from Christ (see John 6.)
The church is not an organization, it is Christians. I am the church. When I meet with other Christians–no matter how informal–we together are the body of Christ.
What is faith without question? Faith that is not tested is not faith. I do not have faith in the word of man any more than Jesus had faith in men. Do you follow the words of the Popes? Even Peter was wrong (see Galatians.) Your institutional Papal system has little to do with Christianity and would have been rejected by Peter.
March 30, 2007 at 12:01 am
Greetings. A thought provoking post indeed. Without a doubt, when two or three saints get together, it’s a church. it can be in a corn field, an alley, or anywhere that we meet. You are right about all of the traditions, ten-step programs, and conforming to a group instead of being transformed into the image of Christ.
I love to fellowship with saints who love the Lord Jesus in spirit and in truth. When you meet such folks, who are simply 100% commited to Christ, it’s awesome. When I was in the navy, we had such a fellowship on the USS Guam.
I never know what to expect when I stop by here. Nonetheless, I know that I’ll be challenged to “think.” It’s imperative that we separate truth from tradition; a blurred line at best for far too many.
I read an account of the Azuza Street revival by Frank Bartleman, one who was present when it took place. If you ever get a chance to read it, it’s very telling about how a true revival takes place and how a revival comes to an end. Each time men will begin to organize and “plan” things out. Folks almost decide that they know how to run the show better. Well, this coment is long. Sorry.
Have a great weekend.
March 30, 2007 at 6:56 am
Interesting post.
March 30, 2007 at 8:03 am
So you’re saying I don’t have to eat fish again tonight?
I can have a bowl of matzo ball soup and a big juicy t-bone?
Sweeeeeeeeet.
March 30, 2007 at 10:23 am
Didn’t Jesus actually say something like ‘Don’t build churches you will find me under a stone ….’ … or something … meaning, he didn’t want to be worshipped at an altar, he encourged us to find beauty and spirit in the world around us.
I’m all for matzo ball soup, then a t-bone and maybe a tuna salad on the side.
Mmmm … bacon!
xx
March 30, 2007 at 10:30 am
Yeah, yeah, I remember something like that too … something about a stone, and a piece of wood, me thinks … and something else. Brains don’t fails me now!
Sorry I have Friday brain. Oy Vey! (nah, i’m not jewish, i just like saying that) But I do make a wicked matzo ball soup.
Let’s have a feast Minxy!! Yum yums!
March 30, 2007 at 10:39 am
Minx, the second part of your quote is from John 4:
“God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” (v. 24)
Minx and Wiggy,
Stone, wood? Not sure. Is this possibly it:
Mt. 21:42 (Quoting the Psalms):
“Jesus said to them, ‘Have you never read in the Scriptures:
” ‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone[h];
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?'”
That’s the only one I could think of that you might be thinking of, though it may not be.
Hey, Passover begins Monday at sundown. You’re all invited to the Seder.
March 30, 2007 at 10:55 am
‘The kingdom of God is within you and all around you. It is not within buildings of wood or stone.
Split a piece of wood and you will find me. Look beneath a stone and I am there.’
I have no clue as to the origin. I only do scripture when I’m on the bottle. But I’m pretty sure this is what Minxy was shootin’ fo.
Dude, I’m on the tip of Skokie. I don’t go to Seder. Seder cometh to me!
(you should see our fellow joo-folk in a traffic jam as the sun melts. You’d think they were vampires or something .. i like to yell, HURRY, GET HOME, YOU’RE gonna burst into FLAMES!)
p.s. don’t drink the mogan david
March 30, 2007 at 11:13 am
I am reminded of something I saw on a Church sign a long time ago (I think it was the big one at Broadway and Gill)…
“Don’t let worry kill you — let the church help.”
March 30, 2007 at 11:18 am
Mark, I’ve got a picture of that church sign somewhere.
Wiggy, the quote is from the movie “Stigmata.”
March 30, 2007 at 11:29 am
Oooooooh, that’s IT! You’re so good. I knew it was etched in my brain for a reason. Cool flick. I love it when priests are tempted by healthy lust. I must rent that again soon. Straight priests are HOT!
(oh i lol’d really loud)
March 30, 2007 at 12:32 pm
I wonder if Catholic girls grow up with the fantasy of screwing Father O’Malley? It seems to me it would be a tremendous ego boost–you’re the one woman who got the man of God to break his vows. It makes you powerful and in control.
Not having grown up a Catholic girl I must rely on Billy Joel’s commentary.
March 30, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Wow, you just gave me a flashback of my last religious retreat, probably age 15, when a 4′ nothing nun popped out beneath a huge banner that read “RESIST THE URGE TO MERGE” whilst ‘Come Out Virginia’ blasted in the background. Awesome. Those were the days.
And a resounding NO on the Father O! I merely saw the Exorcist one too many times. It’s knowing they’re conflicted, tortured, straight, smart, virtue-ridden, committed, horned up and pretty that makes them hot. The O’Malley’s just wanted a … nevermiiiiind.
March 30, 2007 at 1:46 pm
ok, back to post content everyone…

kevin check out the post over at home engineer site.
let’s clear up first, if we can, the heretic stuff.
i know the post is pretty simplistic, but play along with me, ok? im going somewhere with it. do ya trust me?
Im still thinking about this post and will ask some ?’s but the boys are coming home tonight, so I gotta focus on home engineer stuff
see ya, k
March 30, 2007 at 6:46 pm
Another interesting post. As a Moody Bible Institute grad I think that I went through the same feelings and impulses about leaving. Yet, right now it is where I find an essential part of my community. Fortunately, most of the people I am around would not have much of a problem with your post. They certainly put up with me.
I think that you might be tempted to return to the church if you visited the Precious Moments chapel.
March 30, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Hey POD, I get this advice fairly regularly. “If you just went to my church…”
I’ve been to your church. I’ve been to their church. I even had the opportunity to spend 10 years trying to build a church around the principles I expound here. Here is what I found:
It is the organization, the false church, that is the problem. It is not so much theology it’s the need to take an organization and call it the church.
And I have talked to many pastors like you who feel they can preserve the church from within the institution. You won’t. Trust me. Too much is riding on the status quo, no matter how radical you believe you are.
This ain’t my first rodeo.
Moody? Do you Dr. Grudem or Dr. McRay? Grudem has the hands down best systematic theology and Dr. McRay’s son is one of my best friends.
March 30, 2007 at 8:29 pm
In the past, I’ve asked for Spiritual Guidance from people who professed to be more spiritual than myself. I’ve gotten the same answer: “Come to my church.” I never did figure out what that had to do with it… *shrug*
But, then again, one of those people tells I’m “possessed,” too.
March 30, 2007 at 8:30 pm
I think you might want to read my reply again. I wasn’t suggesting that you would want to be back in church if you came to my church (The Palisades Community Church not the Precious Moments Chapel). I was merely commenting on my own personal current experience. Sorry if it came across as condescending. I am attempting to avoid condescention.
I have no problem with where you find yourself, nor am I interested in trying to conjure up some phony apologetics to entice you back into an institutional setting. I was merely stating that I am content where I find myself and that has not always been the case. I assure you that any interest in preservation are mostly selfish.
I seem to have struck a chord which was purely unintended. My final sentence was a weak attempt at a joke. If you visit the Precious Moments Chapel website I think you will know what I was talking about. I currently have it on my blog.
I do like rodeo metaphors, my cousin was a bull rider, but that is another story…..
Ahh Dr. McRay. I never had him, but heard about him. It has been over 15 years since I went to Moody. So, some of the profs. names are hazy.
March 30, 2007 at 8:32 pm
You are, Mark, Jesus appeared to me last night and showed me you have a demon of coarse humor. IN THE NAME OF JESUS I REBUKE YOU! GET THEE BEHIND ME BLOGITUDE!
March 30, 2007 at 8:39 pm
Hey POD, I didn’t mean you were asking me to come to YOUR church. My point was to say I am opposed to ANY church.
Did you hit a nerve? Possibly, though I am not aware of it. Though I don’t know if anyone ever admits that.
Sorry I didn’t get the joke. I figured there was actually a “Precious Moments Chapel,” sorry I was slow on the uptake with that one. Landover Baptist I’ve heard of.
The funniest thing about Dr. McRay is his pet nickname–by which his whole family refers to him: Pooh. As in “Winnie the” and his wife is “Honey.”
March 30, 2007 at 8:55 pm
You must be close friends with his son to know such intimate family details.
March 30, 2007 at 8:59 pm
We’re pretty close. I taught his grandson to play baseball with my boys in my front yard, his daughter-in-law is my redhead’s best friend and we have been to his son’s home more times than I can count for various things. His son is my MD and my friend.
March 31, 2007 at 6:37 pm
Demon of Coarse Humor?
No problem … I’ll give it a spanking.
April 1, 2007 at 12:07 am
So you’re spending your Saturday evening spanking the demon Mark? What, no date tonight?
April 1, 2007 at 6:47 pm
It was early still.
April 3, 2007 at 8:41 pm
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=f2acacc68738d0cbb803
i only made it thru 1 1/2 minutes thru
April 3, 2007 at 8:44 pm
Sorry, 38 seconds is all I made it through.
“Thanks” for the link.
April 3, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Saw that link somewhere else and listened to the ex-gay evangelist sing, “It aint Cool to be gay.” I made it about 30 seconds before my ears were bleeding.
April 16, 2007 at 1:50 am
your site is very interesting. I had a debate about christ being in all of us and not having to go to “church” to another friend who was “starting his own church” and marketing for members. My 19 year old daughter is studying theology now and am afraid she has been misguided and brainwashed to the point where it is to late to save her from organized religion as her mother (a lutheran pastor’s daughter) and I divorced when she was just five years old. I could not afford to spend much time with her due to building a business.
April 16, 2007 at 7:10 am
Teach her to think and she’ll be just fine.
March 10, 2008 at 5:18 am
Stmaryssportszone8319$anchor$basketball Betting,final Four,final Four Betting,final Four Gambling,final Four Sports Book,final Four Sportsbook,march Madness,march Madness Betting,march Madness Gambling,march Madness Sports Book,march Madness Sportsbo…
Stmaryssportszone8319$anchor$basketball Betting,final Four,final Four Betting,final Four Gambling,final Four Sports Book,final Four Sportsbook,march Madness,march Madness Betting,march Madness Gambling,march Madness Sports Book,march Madness Sportsbook…
April 24, 2008 at 9:25 am
He never pays any child support. I can go to his house on Sundays, but he’s never there. He never comes to my birthday parties or any other special events in my life. When I talk to him, he never responds. I’ve been told that he listens, but sometimes a little advice would be nice. He won’t tell me who my mom is. He expects me to live my entire life by just a few rules. If I refuse, he will stick me in an oven and never let me out. All this…and you fuckers want me to pray to him!!!
Ladies and Gentlemen, I hate to burst your pretty little bubble that you have been living in, but your version of God is nothing more than an egotistical dead beat dad. Do you people really believe in all of that nonsense you preach to one another week after week? “Thou shalt live by my ten commandments or I shalt kick your ass.” That’s pretty much what his little rule book says, isn’t it? Think about it for a minute. He wants you to live by HIS rules. He created so many wonderful things that you are not allowed to enjoy. Give me a fucking break.
Let’s start with sin. I grew up going to church. Being the typical kid, I asked my preacher about sin. He told me that everyone sins. He told me to ask for forgiveness and I will have it. Even at the age of 8, my first thought was that this guy was a moron. His statement alone proves that religion is bullshit. Do anything you want, ask for forgiveness, and you shall have it! So basically, fuck off all you want, piss on God’s word, sin until you can’t stand it anymore, and then say your sorry…and you’re good!??? Totally negates every passage in the bible. Way to go. Real convincing argument dipshit!
And how do we even know what god wants. Did god write the bible and mail it to someone? Nope. People wrote the bible and said it is Gods word. How do they know what his word is? Why would God speak to just those people…and nobody else? They didn’t talk to God. They got ahold of some really good pot, ate a few twinkies, and thought they heard voices. Moses and the burning bush….enough said!!! Apparently drugs were really good back in the day.
Jesus on the cross. You people are fucking sick! Your symbol is a dead carcus nailed to a cross. I think what I find so amusing about this whole concept is the fact that some dude walked around saying, “I’m the son of God” and modern day people actually buy into this. However, if I were to get on the news and claim to be the son of God, some really nice men in their clean white coats would lock me away in a looney bin saying, “Sure you are” while the same bastards who believed Jesus to be the real deal would be all like, “Who’s that freak thinking he’s Jesus?” Goddamn morons! Your bible foretold the coming of Jesus again people…not me. He’s probably already here…locked up in some psycho ward. Or maybe he’s not. Maybe the bible and organized religion was just something made up by powerful people to control the dimwitted minions. Maybe the bible was just an awesome fairytail book written for some rich person’s kids and somehow leaked out for the rest of the world to enjoy. At some point we teach our children to stop believing in Santa Clause. Maybe God is just his replacement. Maybe. Maybe some brilliant guy thought to himself one day, “I wonder if I could write a book and actually get people to believe it to be true.”
I find it amazing that some people devote their entire life to something that can’t even be proven. Science can prove how we came to be. Physical evidence that says where the human race came from…and there are actually people out there who ignore that and say, “Nope, MY wife came from a rib.” Give me a fucking break you twit!!! Better get your rib back dude, cuz your wife is probaby sucking some other rib-doners cock while you’re at church playing pretend with all of your buddies!
And Catholics…how do you sleep at night? You act like you’re king shits…but your preachers fuck your alter boys! I think I can let that one go with that. There is NO WAY for anyone to fight that argument. Fucking sick fucks!
Here’s my thing. If you people actually believe that god gave someone the power to part the sea, walk on water, turn water into wine, and all the other wonderful magic tricks the good book mentions, why is it so hard to believe that Superman is real? Why can’t there be life on other planets. And why can’t Wrestling be real?
I can keep this fight up all night, but I’ll stop here. You people and your religious beliefs…well you make it too easy.
May 29, 2008 at 5:56 pm
make sure your site is law compliant…
Avoid legal trouble, make your website compliant with the law. It will save you from serious problems. The best part…you can do it in under 60 minutes….
February 6, 2009 at 11:33 am
To those who continue to go to church open your eyes to unbiblical
churches who have you sign a contract to tith a scheduled amount of gifting or tithing. READ YOUR BIBLE it says make no promises least you cannot keep them . James 5:12 (New King James Version)
12 But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your “Yes” be “Yes,” and your “No,” “No,” lest you fall into judgment. So why should you sign a promiseary note to your church for tithing YOU SHOULD NOT ITS UNBIBLICAL. So if your church is asking you to sign a contract tell them it’s unbiblical and get out or stay and fight the good fight and EXPOSE THEM. Be on gard you will lose all but one or true christian friends doing this but its for God. The church has become a theif.
October 19, 2009 at 11:47 am
I read the above responses and I cannot help but comment on the importance of attending Church as a devoted Roman Catholic. It is where I find great joy and learn about the help God provides for me. It is where I feel peace and an escape from the busy world. Please do not condemn it! It is what will save us from GOING TO HELL. God does so much for me and he has helped me and my family so much. Please do not turn from him. He will help and forgive all who has sinned! God Bless you