Can Christians Be Both Stupid and Saved?

If you aren’t a Christian, this post isn’t for you. Sure, it will give you lots of fodder to use in any anti-Christian rhetoric you choose to engage in, but that isn’t why I am writing it.

Recently I was reading one of the WordPress top posts when I came across this one written by Darryl Sloan.

I wanted to lift this little gem and comment on it:

You could say that people belong in one of two categories: they either believe in God, or they don’t. But let me add a third category: those who say they believe in God, but get uncomfortable or embarrassed at the mention of anything remotely supernatural. These people require the Flood to be rendered as a myth or explained by meteorological means. Likewise with the fire that rained from the sky on Sodom and Gomorrah. To them the idea of demons as actual beings is preposterous. This third category is a wishy-washy form of Christianity that probably comes about as a result of pressure from the intellectual atheist majority, and as a vain attempt at keeping some degree of credibility in their eyes. The thing is, if a person believes in God, it is perfectly logical to grant God permission to bend or break the laws of the universe that he set in motion.

(By the way, someone tell Darryl when you are writing for the web you need to use short, choppy paragraphs people can easily read on a computer screen.)

Darryl to your three categories let me add a fourth: People who call themselves Bible believing Christians yet engage in willful ignorance and poor thinking.

It’s relatively easy to simply say “I believe the Bible” without taking into any serious consideration the hundreds of problems with literalism. And I’m not simply talking about the age of the earth or the universal flood.

The reason I gave up on inerrant literalism was not due to a need to be loved and accepted by the atheists (though surprisingly I am.) My reason was much more straightforward: In order to teach inerrant literalism one must lie.

Any neutral observer can see the obvious contradictions in the Bible. That does NOT make the Bible unreliable, but it does make it fallible. To not see this is either a result of willful avoidance, delusion or neglect.

So which is it for you Darryl? Are you avoiding the obvious contradictions in scripture? Or are you delusional (possibly as the result of demon possession)? Or are you simply neglecting personal study?

Evangelism Guilt Part II

My evangelism post from last week has brought out two groups of people: Those who wisely realize the truth of my reasoning and Biblical exegesis and those who are wrong.

Since those who are wrong tend to have similar thoughts, I decided to address them in this post so more people get to share in the marshmallowy goodness that is my reply.

First we have Bill. Bill has played here before and he was saying idiotic things. Bill seems to be coming around, however, and his stupid level on comments has decreased somewhat.

Here is what Bill had to say:

So, if I understand correctly, you’re saying that Jesus’ command to the 11 in Matthew 28:19-20 to teach others to “obey everything I have commanded you,” meant to teach obedience to all the commands except making disciples? Or is it that the next generation was responsible for making disciples, but not to teach obedience to the following generation?

Ah, Bill, you are in error for two reasons:

1. You are ignorant of the scriptures
2. You lack the reasoning ability to see not every command to the Apostles is a command to all followers of Christ

I don’t blame you, I blame your mother.

She probably taught you from the time you were a tot that Big Bible God will smite you if you don’t do exactly what He says to do. Kind of like the child of a child abuser: If you screw up–even unintentionally–you’re gettin’ beat and it’s all your fault.

I also blame her because she took you to that fundamentalist church. Southern Baptist wasn’t it? They started your guilt parade. More on this in a minute.

While you may try to make this verse teach everyone has the responsibility to be an evangelist, other verses clearly teach not everyone is to be an evangelist. Take, for example, the inerrant Pauline verses in Ephesians 4:

11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

“Some” not “all” not even “most”.

At this point some will argue: “But that refers to the OFFICE of the evangelist, not the command for every Christian to evangelize.” Just exactly where does scripture teach this oft-repeated doctrine? Let me know when you come up with that reference Will.I.Am.

But Bill I will give you this: At least you phrased your assertion as a question. Special bonus Jeopardy points for you.

Now let’s move on to our next guilt monger: The8thMan. Because there is so much crazy in his posts, I will print them in their entirety with my comments inserted.

WC, our love is contaminated, but God’s word is pure.

OK, first off, I’ve got to stop you there. My redhead and I were both virgins when we wed and neither of us has an STD. My love is NOT contaminated. Your love may require some penicillin or Valtrex, but not mine. From now on (until you get treatment) tell people YOUR love is contaminated.

If anyone thinks that their attempt to “love somebody into the kingdom” can replace the work of the Holy Spirit, through the preaching of the word.. than they are saying that they have more influence on somebody than the Spirit of God.

No, they are saying the Love Christ showed them teaches them to love one another. Ever read I John? It’s a good book from the Good Book. We love because He first loved us. This is how we know what love is…like Prego, it’s in there.

God’s word does not return void. My words will fall to the ground, but His words endure forever, as does His love. It’s okay if don’t use a verse in it’s entirety. We paraphrase the Word of God or use part of a scripture that applies… but let’s use it, because that’s what separates our love from others… we can back it up with truth of scripture.

Have you ever heard of circular reasoning? Or even a circle? Let me see if I understand your argument correctly:

God’s Word is true because it says so. God’s Word will not return void (which is an archaic way of saying things–Isaiah is turning over in his grave.) Therefore God’s Word is how we should share the Gospel.

Worse yet, it’s not just what you see as written–it’s how you personally interpret God’s Word.

Here is a reality check: The vast majority of non-Christians do not accept the Bible as truth. When you start using archaic language from the Bible, which they believe is an ancient myth, they are amused, annoyed or just don’t listen. Any more than you accept those who religion is based on the teachings of the Buddha, Ellen White, Joseph Smith or Mohammed.

We love because Jesus first loved us. It was God’s kindness that led us to repentance.

What love do we have to offer them? God’s love was already demonstrated to them by Jesus Christ dying on the cross. Why did He do that? Because they would perish and face eternity in hell.

The Christian story has become so commonplace we often fail to realize just how unappealing it seems to non-Christians.

Here is a cartoon I found. It deletes the “Christian language” from the Gospel and presents it as it would appear using neutral language (click for full size):

Found here.

Non-Christians see the Christian Gospel as another ancient myth. In my experience–after almost 20 years as a pastor and 30 years as a Christian–people are much more open and inquisitive when you love them.

And for everyone reading this… if you are not sharing your faith, than you should feel guilty.

Ah, now we get it. You are driven by guilt. If you are touching yourself, then you should feel guilty.

Now… should it be that guilt that drives you to evangelize? No. But rather, it should be your love for the Lord and the compassion that you have towards others. You want to see them soundly saved and not face the vengeance of God on Judgment Day.

Is it just me or does anyone else see a problem with the heritage of our faith when we exalt sermons like “Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God”? When John Calvin tortured and killed heretics I guess he was being very Christ-like, right?

I don’t understand the judgment nor do I understand God. Anyone who claims to understand God is lying, is deluded or both. I do read and understand the Bible, but I also understand it was penned by men who “saw through a glass darkly.” There is a strong case to make–even if one is a literalist–for annihilation of “wicked”. Some even teach there is no resurrection for the “wicked”.

Don’t believe the lie… that it takes months and years to build a strong enough relationship to share your faith.

Wow, you get it. Good for you.

We don’t know if we have that much time. Their day of appointment could be tomorrow.

Which is up to God, right? I mean, in your theology, evangelism success is up to God. Do you believe God is both powerful enough and wise enough to provide Christians in a sinner’s life who can show him love years before he dies? Or do you believe it is up to us to witness to all we see because they could die tomorrow?

If you do believe you should witness most urgently to those about to die, how much time are you spending in the ICU? Aren’t those the people in the most immanent danger of hell? Should you do whatever it takes to get them the Gospel?

I was able to share the gospel with the pizza guy yesterday.

“Sharing the Gospel” and sharing Christ are two very different things. Anybody want to take bets on the reaction the other Domino’s guys had when the delivery guy related his experience with 8thMan to his workmates? Anyone think he may have thought 8th was a religious wacko?

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God. (Romans 10:17)

True. In context. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. And in context what is the “Word” Paul is speaking of? And who is speaking this Word?

Romans 10

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent?

Ok so this passage is about how PREACHERS (in this case those who preach an evangelistic message) share the Gospel. It says nothing to “regular” Christians other than encouraging them to send out others to preach the Gospel. Which makes my point.

Many times we stall our preaching, because we don’t know how. What helped me get greatly equipped for the word of evangelism is a ministry called, The Way of the Master. You can check it out at www.wayofthemaster.com.

You are kidding, right? I mean, you are here trolling for angry responses, right? I mean I didn’t just see a video of television star Kirk Cameron telling a so-called “gang member” he would give the guy $20 if he would just listen the his Gospel message, right?

Heck, I’ll be happy to watch the video 10 times a day if Kirk will send me $200/day.

In another comment, 8thGuy goes on to show more Biblical ignorance:

Total Tranny,

Relational evangelism gets my vote.

Or you could always go with the old standard, jumping out of an alley or some bushes and yelling, “Do you know my friend Jesus?”

That’s not biblical evangelism either. But better to jump out of an alley and tell them about Jesus, than to say nothing at all.

And if you open up your trench coat it can give them a cheap thrill as well.

Don’t think that you are above what the apostles did and many of those saints who went before us. There is no bible verse to back up relationship evangelism.

Um, let’s see.

• Mary shares with Elizabeth (Luke 1:39-56, Includes Catchy Toon)
• Andrew tells his brother Simon (John 1:41-42)
• Philip tells his friend Nathanael (John 1:43-45)
• The Woman at the Well tells her friends (John 4:39-42)
• Mary tells Peter and John (John 20:1-2)
• Two disciples Share with the 11 (Luke 24:33-35)

Most of the New Testament history we have is based on the preaching ministry of Paul (early Acts also includes other evangelists, but the majority of the NT is about the preaching ministry of Paul), but the example and instruction we have is that:

1. Not Everyone is Called to Preach
2. Where we do see Individuals, They Share with Their Friends

I will not apologize if the Biblical methods of evangelism aren’t cool enough for you. In the time that it takes for you to build one relationship, the gospel can be shared to hundreds if not thousands. Don’t trust in you own methods, but trust in the Word of God.

What is the example of preaching the Gospel? Let’s see…

The group of believers sends out preachers to share the Gospel. Those preachers go to JEWISH SYNOGOGUES on the Sabbath and tell them about Christ. If the Jews don’t respond, they find forums where groups of Gentiles gather and share the Gospel. The message is accompanied by miraculous signs that demonstrate the power of God and of the Gospel.

Tell me 8thGuy, when was the last time you preached in a synagogue? Yeah, I thought so. You aren’t concerned with the Biblical model, you are concerned with your notion of the Biblical model. Huge difference.

8thGuy, you believe the Bible to be inerrant. Why not study it? Why not use it as the exact pattern for evangelism today? I’ll bet you’ll make Fox News for getting kicked out of a synagogue–PRAISE JESUS!

Islam is ICKY. Meet Tom and Bill, Warriors for Christ

Over at the Sanctification blog I met Tom and Bill.

Tom and Bill are a couple of God’s warriors who know all about evil Islam and how all the little brown skinned Muslims just need to give up their religion of hate and intolerance and adopt their Christian religion. After all, Christianity doesn’t teach violence, intolerance or hate.

Yeah Jesus!

Anyway, I took time to comment on one of the posts and immediately my commitment to Christ was challenged. Luckily I am so full of the Holy Spirit I went immediately into a trance and God gave me this inspired response. Enjoy:

Bill:

Where does your version of Christianity come from?

I’m still using ChristOS 98. I know, I know, but I haven’t had time to do the upgrade and now I hear ChristVista is full of bugs so I’m going to wait until they work out the kinks to get the upgrade.

Are you running ChristVista? Or are you still running ChristXP?

Have you ever read anything Jesus said?

No, I can’t read, but Jesus comes to me every night and teaches me by candlelight everything I need to know. Just like Lincoln.

Wanna hear some of my favorite verses?

Here is a selection from Matthew 23

3Dnot do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them….

10Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13″Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to….

15″Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are….

23″Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

Really, I like the whole chapter. You see, I know I’m evil. Your problem is you don’t know how truly evil you are. You demonstrate by your very questions that you have no clue how evil you are.

Embrace your inner evil. Only then will you be able to be set free.

“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell” (Matthew 5:21-22). Also, if you don’t love your brother, the Bible says you abide in death, and you’re a child of the devil (1 John 3:10, 3:14).

I never called you guys fools. I called you idiots. By definition an idiot is a person of inferior intelligence. That’s you guys. I could have called your ignoramuses and been accurate.

But fools you are.

I tell you this because I love you enough to tell you the truth. Who is a fool Biblically? Let’s see, just from Proverbs 1:

“fools despise wisdom and discipline.” – Pro 1:7

You see, when you start making pronouncements about Islam without even knowing the basics, you show yourself as a fool. But there’s more…

“For the waywardness of the simple will kill them, and the complacency of fools will destroy them” – Prov 1:32

OK, I know you guys don’t have a good edumacation, so I need to define the big word up there. “Complacency” is when you are satisfied with your level of ignorance.

That’s where you are: Don’t try to learn anything about Islam or even the Bible, just perpetuate the ignorance you have been taught.

I do find it interesting your response to me is to claim I am going to the realm of toasty warmth because I don’t love you. And I’ll bet the irony of that is completely lost on you.

Are you born again?

I am bored again.

Tell me, oh wise ones, what is the evidence of “rebirth”? I understand what J to the C was telling to Nick, but I don’t think you have a clue. What is it that makes one born again, do you know?

Tom, on September 17th, 2007 at 10:04 pm Said:

You have referred to yourself as a follower of Christ. Please share with us your Christian background. What denomination do you belong to? Do you attend church each week?

I don’t go to church, I am the church.

But before I go on, what does my spiritual orientation have to do with truth? Otherwise, if you are wrong and I point it out and I meet all your Christian check list points, then you’ll know you’re wrong? Or are you looking for a reason to dismiss truth by deciding I can’t be right because I am not the right kind of Christian?

How do you believe a person gets to Heaven? Do you think Jesus is the only way to Heaven?

I’ll answer you the way Jesus answered those who wished to condemn him: Ted Haggard: Was he sent from God or man?

I don’t mean to be rude but I am having my doubts about your understanding of the Christ you claim to follow.

That is extremely rude and pretty much off topic. And you did mean to be rude. That’s OK, I have noticed Christians lose their manners pretty quickly when someone disagrees.

Again, what does truth have to do with my understanding of Christ? If the things I am saying are true, then they are true.

Tom, on September 17th, 2007 at 10:11 pm Said:

Bill,

I appreciate you stepping in and making this a tag team match instead of a 2 on 1 handicap match. Keep up the good fight.

Count it all as persecution when people point out your stupidity. The good news is that I will post this at my blog so you will get lots of traffic. Sure, it will be point and laugh traffic, but again think of the rewards.

The Noah’s Ark Challenge

Young earth creationists and all Biblical literalists (yes I’m looking at you Alabama) take the Noah’s ark story to be literal history.

Noah built an ark, placed the animals on the ark, rode the waves for a year and emerged unscathed and ready for heavenly humping.

Over at The Big Picture blog, Jeff makes a challenge to these fundamentalists: Do it. Since we are told the dimensions of the ark, how long it was at sea, etc. go ahead and get a group of 8 hardy souls to duplicate the effort.

Good idea. But here’s the problem: If the folks at fundy groups like Answers in Genesis actually did the experiment and failed, it wouldn’t change their belief at all. They would say the reason they failed while Noah succeeded was simple:

God did it.

And that’s the problem.

D. James Kennedy Quotes

Rob Boston compiled a list of D. James Kennedy quotes here.

Are TV preacher D. James Kennedy’s views extreme? Judge for yourself. Here is a sampling of opinions taken from his 1994 book, Character & Destiny: A Nation In Search of Its Soul (written with Jim Nelson Black):

The Culture War

“Christians did not start the culture war but…we are going to end it. That is a fact, and the Bible assures us of victory.” (p. 76)

Deliberately Deceitful Educators

“Not all the educators in our public schools and universities are deliberately deceitful, not all of them want to destroy this nation, but many do. The major teachers’ unions certainly do.” (p. 75)

The United States: A Christian Nation

“But the fact is, the United States of America was conceived and brought forth by Christians, and history tells us that story in no uncertain terms….Anyone who reads about the values upon which this nation was founded understands perfectly well that this was, from the start, a Christian nation.” (p. 71)

Ten Thousand Communist Professors

“Just a few years ago, there were as many as ten thousand Communist professors in American universities. The average person never saw any of them, and many would doubt the truth of that statistic. But I can assure you it is true.” (p. 63)

Secular Sinners

“Modern secularists and agnostics do not want to admit that the Christian religion is true, because that would mean that they are sinners; and they have no intention of giving up their right to sin.” (p. 46)

Public School Immorality

“Teachers in many of our public schools have acceded to the policies of the liberal teachers’ unions to make sure that students from kindergarten through high school will be stripped of any sense of moral or ethical absolutes. Right and wrong are non-issues in our public schools.” (p.260)

Evolution: Into The Slime

“Every new advance and every step taken by science confirm not evolution but the Genesis account of creation. Yet evolution still continues to be taught as fact….Thus, the honorable place that had been given to human beings by God is surreptitiously aborted, and they are dragged down into the slime.” (p. 17

Dismantling The Wall Of Separation

“If we are committed and involved in taking back the nation for Christian moral values, and if we are willing to risk the scorn of the secular media and the bureaucracy that stand against us, there is no doubt we can witness the dismantling of not just the Berlin Wall but the even more diabolical ‘wall of separation’ that has led to increasing secularization, godlessness, immorality, and corruption in our country.” (p. 126-127)

Engaging The Enemy

“God forbid that we who were born into the blessings of a Christian America should let our patrimony slip like sand through our fingers and leave to our children the bleached bones of a godless secular society. But whatever the outcome, one thing is certain: God has called us to engage the enemy in this culture war. That is our challenge today.” (p. 91)

No Power On Earth Can Stop Us

“This is our land. This is our world. This is our heritage, and with God’s help, we shall reclaim this nation for Jesus Christ. And no power on earth can stop us.” (p. 85)

Reclaiming America For Christ

“How much more forcefully can I say it? The time has come, and it is long overdue, when Christians and conservatives and all men and women who believe in the birthright of freedom must rise up and reclaim America for Jesus Christ.” (p. 80)